Relentless Pursuit
Our relentless pursuit after God as He pursues after us.
Relentless Pursuit
Fusing Creativity with Spirituality in Ministry
When my friend Jesus and I reunited to reflect on our days in Dallas, Fort Worth, we never expected our conversation would bloom into a full-blown exploration of creativity in ministry. Jesus, a dynamo of inventive energy in the church, joins me to unravel how our shared experiences have woven a tapestry of commitment to infusing the Holy Spirit into everything we do. We dive into the essence of creative work within the church, treating it not merely as an accessory to the worship experience but as a profound form of worship in itself. Listen as we peel back the layers of our creative processes, from Jesus's approach to designing materials that speak to the heart of the congregation, to my own spiritual journey in sermon preparation, and discover how our distinct contributions have shaped the communities we serve.
The path of a creative, especially within the sacred walls of the church, can be fraught with the brambles of criticism and self-doubt. Jesus and I open up about the thorns we've encountered and the resilience required to push through. We share stories of setbacks and the spiritual reframing necessary to view them as opportunities for growth and deeper worship. Our dialogue navigates the fusion of creativity, spirituality, and social media, shedding light on the potential for creatives in church media teams and the broader mission of the church. If you're looking to reignite your creative spark or seeking affirmation of your talents as acts of devotion, this heartfelt exchange promises to uplift and inspire. Join us for a journey of faith, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of divine expression in ministry.
Thank you for joining this week's episode of relentless pursuit. I have a special guest here. He's a brother, he's a friend and he's definitely someone that I love to be around. He inspires me through his creativity and he inspires me in the faith. Seuss, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Hey, man, I'm so excited Cause I mean, we, we really have known each other for a long time, but we haven't known each other and we got familiar with each other when we went to Dallas, fort Worth, and being there was just life transforming. I don't know about you, but I know that, with the four of us, I felt like we really took this like bond of brothers, where we grabbed what we received there and we brought it here and we went into our respective churches, each of us and brought something that we received and inspired us and to cultivate this atmosphere of the Holy spirit, welcoming the Holy spirit, and so, in that same way, we, each of us, have a different ministry. Obviously, jonah, he leads his youth. Manny, he's a worship leader. Me, I do whatever, whatever, I'm just a guy.
Speaker 1:And you, which is a different aspect, is, you are creative. I mean, yes, you're you, you worship. And you, you do piano and you're amazing, you're the best piano player ever. Shout out to Jesus Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. But all your main ministry and what you focus on and what you really excel in, I mean explain that to us, like, what are the aspects of creativity where you can put those into a church realm?
Speaker 2:Well, just like you said, yeah, I do a little bit of the worship and I do a little bit of like the piano and but to integrate creativity, it's it. Honestly, I think it. I think it came from having that mindset that I took also when I when I started doing piano. Is that just like music? It's a, it's like one of those like repeating and like you recycle old stuff, but in the same way, you want to bring a fresh perspective on well to at least for for me, doing it in the church like I, want to bring something fresh that it doesn't feel recycled but feels still organic or at least inspired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and I'm sure, like for me, when I'm getting ready to prepare a message, I mean we always rely on the gift of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I mean that is, the only way we can prepare properly is if we allow the Holy Spirit to use us. And I'm sure in that same aspect or in that same concept, where you have to allow the Holy Spirit to also work through you in the creative realm, yeah, I mean, I feel like preparing a message and taking pictures or creating a flyer or whatever is the same, is the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because I mean, for me, when I see someone taking a photo and I see them, they get this amazing photo of somebody lifting their hands and in the moment with God, in their moment with God. That inspires me more than than people believe, because it's making it realistic, it's making it personal. And so, with that, like, how do you and how does it enhance, how does creativity enhance, the worship experience?
Speaker 2:Well, one of the big things about just creativity and in ministry and like in general, is that what you do is a form of worship and you and you worship God through through that, through that space. So by including this creative side and capturing it, you want to have those like you want to have, like those creations and capture those moments that feel that that makes people feel the same style of worship that you were looking for in that photo or in that or in that video. Even when you're making a design like a flyer and stuff like that, you want to have people to have the that encounter and feel inspired by the design and have them be appealed to it. But by seeing God through that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and so for. For you, how, how are ways that you use your ministry and this creative side of it to to to reach and grab people and pull people in?
Speaker 2:So whenever I'm designing something, really you have to look at your audience. You're you're trying to reach a wide variety of people people that go to church consistently, people that are newcomers and who may not know too much about, about God or ministry in general. Yeah, what you're trying to reach out to both sides, but primarily the new people. You want to have something that hooks them, that makes them think this is, this is not just a cool flyer, but you know what? On the flyer there's content that is that is God inspired as well, and you want to include that and be, like in general, inclusive to everybody.
Speaker 2:But it has to be. It has to appeal to everybody in all, in all ways colors. It has to be. You know, things have to be easy to read and you want to feel inclusive to everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to make somebody feel warm. Exactly In a way, I remember because I used to do flyers godly, when I first started ministry, really, I guess I used to make flyers for what we used to call it Gen. Now Okay, it was literally a Google Docs. I put a picture and said free food, fun, worship.
Speaker 2:What the?
Speaker 1:For every single week. I just changed out the picture. It was great. It was the best v-flyer I've ever made in my life, no, but so I'm obviously not the person that's good at flyers. I barely do the design. My wife is all the creative gene that she has, so she does everything for it. She makes me if she picks out my outfits, and so, yeah, I leave it to her to be the creative and I'm just kind of there for the ride.
Speaker 2:That's funny bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how does one thing that I was curious about, because, being creative, like for me in the instance, this podcast, I needed a little bit of creative gene. So obviously I asked my wife and then, for the design of the logo, even the details of it, of the podcast, just specifically the podcast, you need a creative gene for it. And so in that I knew I wasn't able to do it on my own. And so how is it important? Is it to gather a community of creatives to help bring out a vision?
Speaker 2:Well, the thing about any community in general, you want to be surrounded by people that are like-minded. People that are like-minded in this specific category of the creative space. When you are surrounded by people that share that same mindset and the same goals, you start to unravel new ideas and new creativity. And especially by those that are in the church creative workspace and I can say this even for me, because I try to. I don't know many other creatives in church, at least locally. I surround myself and I follow people that have that mentality already, like on social media, and from there I start to. I see what inspires them and it makes me think you know what? I love that they have this workflow. I love that they share the same goals as I do. So I learn from other people and it just puts that spark into me and it makes me want to do just as good, if not better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think in that there's this man. I can't even remember his name. I wrote him down because I didn't want to forget His name's Bezel, Something like that.
Speaker 1:Oh, right, right, right yeah yeah, you know what I was saying? Bezel, something like that. Sure, we'll go with him. So he was the first person in the Bible that was ever said to have the Spirit of God filled within him, and he was making the temple. He was really just fulfilling the will of God, and the thing about it is is that God was so gracious enough to surround him with people that could help him build this almost impossible task on his own, but he surrounded him with people that could accompany him and help build this vision that God had and instilled it in Bezel, or him, me, big Bs, anyways, I don't know if.
Speaker 1:Anyways, but my point is is that there's so many people that you have to surround yourself Like, for example? I mean, for me, I have to be surrounded by people like you, people like Jonah, people like Manny, people that are like-minded when it comes to spirit-filled, like-minded when it comes to guided by God. Because if I'm not, then what makes me different than someone you see on the street that's throwing up gang signs with the flag? I'm just getting extreme. But the point is, is that there has to be something that makes me different? Yeah, absolutely, and so, even in our work and what you do. There has to be something that separates you from the world, because the world has its own design, but you have, because you're filled with the spirit of God. You have, you now set apart, your work for God's will, and so what's the importance of being filled with the spirit of God in doing creative things like that?
Speaker 2:Well, if you're going to be doing anything for the Lord, you want to be filled with the Holy Spirit. You really do need to be, and this guy that you're talking about, bezel, was exactly that he was filled with the spirit of God in order for him to create.
Speaker 2:What was it like? A temple, or yeah, it was a temple. So, yeah, he didn't. He couldn't have done that on his own. You have to be filled by the spirit of God in order for you to fulfill Well, god's will, first of all, but that that inspiration came from him, and I think there's no better way to worship than when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, and I think we've and you and I have seen that at the conference. So many people were there. There is a community there that are heavily filled with the Holy Spirit, where they can flow and worship, and there's a lot of people there that we also saw that were filled with the Holy Spirit, but they were doing in the creative space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the video video, the videographers. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the camera guys even the guys that are doing all the what's it called, all the visuals for the screens. Those were insane. They're really really good. Yeah, but when you have a community like that is already filled with the Holy Spirit, not only are you building a community, but you have a lot of people that are individually talented because they are filled by the, by the spirit of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so you say talented now. Now I want to kind of focus on that. So, so you can be talented, but you can sit on your talent. In the Bible there's three men. One was given five talents, the other was given three and the other given one, and the one with five multiplied it to ten, the one with three multiplied it to six I could be botching the quote and it could be different numbers, but similar to those and then the one that had the one, he buried it and brought it back to Jesus and was like I only got this because I buried it. Anyways, he wasted an opportunity to grow his talent Right. And so how important for you is to have a good work ethic, let alone be detail-oriented.
Speaker 2:But having a good work ethic accompany your gift Well one of the big things that you just said is that you kind of waste the talent if you're sitting on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You really do. You don't have that mentality of growth anymore. And this has happened to me a lot of times and this happens to a lot of creatives everywhere. Sometimes you just can't. You're just like you either can't come up with something or you're just taking advantage of your talent and spending your day, maybe not doing so much. Sometimes, even on my off days, I'm like, oh, finally get some time to relax. But at the end of the day, sometimes those days go by and I'm like I wasted this entire day when I could have done something. And that's happened to me plenty of times. But it only took me a few times to realize that I should not have that mentality. You're never going to grow if you're just sitting, and that's what happened to me on some of those days and that has only made me think to myself what am I doing? I need to get back into this and I'm like I need to at least do one project, do one small thing at least for me to still be on a growth path.
Speaker 2:And that guy who in the story for in that parable that's hid his talent. Actually he was fearful of what, basically like losing it or whatever. But an opportunity is wasted if you're not doing anything about it. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I mean you said fearful and I kind of want to expand on that. I don't know why I'm going down a different rabbit hole that I didn't prepare you for, but the imitation I'm sorry, intimidation of man has such almost like a weight over a lot of creatives, because they don't want to make things, they want to make things good enough for people to see. You know like they want people to receive it and be like wow, that's the best video I've ever seen. Wow, that's the best design I've ever seen. Wow, that's the best shirt I've ever seen. And they want people to receive it.
Speaker 1:But once they get that negative review of one instance, you could have out of five stars, you could have a 4.19 and be like what happened to this one. You know this point one and really hang your head on that and that's that intimidation, that's that in fear. So how do you overcome that? I mean, I mean I know how I overcome it as, as you know, a believer, and I mean I could just keep getting up. But you know somebody who does things that that are seen by a lot, of, a lot of people. I mean, given the church, I'm sure there's other people that you have outside influences to you. I'm sure you have a reach in a network of a greater majority of people. What happens that you or what? How do you overcome that intimidation or that, that, that negative feedback?
Speaker 2:Well, you're always going to have a hater. Yeah, regardless If you're a believer or not and you're designing something, there is going to be someone out there that's going to not like your design. For example, you may not have made the best designs when you were doing the word doc, but you did it wholeheartedly and you were probably there, for like this is. This is for the community, this is for you.
Speaker 2:But you did something nonetheless when someone, when that you know that service wasn't going to be met, no one was going to do that, but you took advantage of it and did it anyways. But I mean, like I said, it may not have been the best one, but you did it. I tried my best. I tried my best and I guess, if you're trying to overcome that, once you once you're, once you realize that you're not going to please everybody and sometimes and this is like a separate topic sometimes you won't even please yourself. Like, sometimes you'll make something that even you hate and that is something that that, even that it happens to me.
Speaker 2:I'll finish a design and I'm like, I'm not satisfied with this at all. It could be for many different reasons and, like I said, this is an entirely different point. But once you realize that what you made was for God or what you made was to satisfy somebody else's needs like I'm saying that in a non-believers kind of perspective but once, once you realize that if this can touch somebody and if this can impact somebody, then I think you did a good job already.
Speaker 1:And so how do you get over that doubt? Cause that that's. Another thing is that when I was making those, those graphic designs, which I call that very loosely when, when, when I was making those flyers, I didn't have a care in the world. I was like you know what I'm doing? I was like this is the sickest thing I've ever seen in my life. I was like this is awesome. And then I would. I was actually exposed to good graphic designs and I was like, oh see, this is not my calling, I'm not gifted in this but but that inward voice, how do you overcome that? I want you to go down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:So it's so tricky because you can apply this to a lot of areas in life. But anything that you do hands on any sort of creative thing that you work on. It doesn't even have to be like some high end project, something for the church. Make a be making a little flyer for you Once you realize that you should just be pumping out things regardless, even if they are terrible. I think that's the way that you grow. You don't learn from a mistake that never happened. You learn from a mistake that happened and I think that's like the biggest growth mindset that everybody should be having, even if they're not in a creative space. Just by doing something or by being productive in one way, even if it is a failure is a success because you've learned from that failure. Now you know what not to do in the future. But to get over that doubt you just have to accept failure. You really do.
Speaker 1:And accepting failure so hard. I mean, it's not easy. I couldn't imagine where I would be if I did get over that failure that I first had, especially when it came to preaching. I remember when I was 18, maybe it was like 20. Anyways, I did my first messages and my dad used to write my messages for me and I would just read them as, and it was like those moments where I didn't even know what I was saying and I felt like in the moment I was like, man, I'm cool for saying this, but after it you're like, oh, this isn't even my message and it is like what's up? Rp family.
Speaker 1:One of the biggest blessings that happened this past year was that I did buy my first house. As exciting that process was, it was also extremely stressful, and you should give a call to Miguel Luna. If you are looking to buy or sell your house. Miguel Luna is the one for you. So thank you, guys. Let's get back to the podcast.
Speaker 1:So it was those failures, those small little failures that I had as really a new believer, that really propelled me to do what I do today. And so, from the failure side of it, we have to understand that we're always going to fail. But the thing is is not the fact that we're gonna fail, it's how we get up from that failure. I can't remember if it was Mac Tyson or someone who said it doesn't matter how many times you get knocked down, but it matters how many times you get back up. But yeah, that's 100% true.
Speaker 1:And in our creative space, in our creative mindset, we have to really put on the image of God, really bear the image of God for that, and that goes back to allowing the spirit of God to be within you, be in you, because our blueprint of how to be a creative is God. In the beginning, god created, and so that's the first scripture, that's the foundation, the basis. In the beginning God created. And so, in that way, how do you put on the image as you create? How do you allow yourself to be a reflection of God as you create?
Speaker 2:I think this can be different for a lot of people. The way that I like to be creative and reflect God's image is by and you remember how we actually had the devotionals from that conference that we went to. So in that devotional they have different categories and one of them was a creative devotional, basically for creatives, and one of the things that really stuck with me was the way that this and I'm actually gonna read this it's a Psalm, psalm eight. Let me see Psalm eight three.
Speaker 2:So it says when I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars which you have set in place, what is mankind?
Speaker 2:That you are mindful of them, human beings, that you care for them, like if you have a God that can design an entire universe, an entire world, and keep us in mind, despite all of the chaos that is actually even within Earth.
Speaker 2:But even outside of Earth, you realize that God has such a creative and very detailed perspective and keeps us in mind as well. So whenever I wanna create something, and especially whenever I get one of those creative blocks where I just don't know what to design or whatever to make, I think of the way that God designed everything with a purpose and it really makes me go back to think what am I designing for? Am I designing to satisfy me? Am I designing to satisfy everybody in the audience that will be seeing this? Am I like this in the whole? Back to that failure thing and haters everywhere kind of thing. Am I designing to satisfy the needs of everybody? I have to go back to the drawing board and realize that God is the ultimate creator and if God can make everything, even considering mankind that is so flawed, I think I can make something. That will not please everybody, but at least I do it wholeheartedly for God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's this scripture that you just reminded me of. It's what is it Therefore? Hmm, this might not be it, but okay, yeah, there we go. Consider the ravens. They neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them of how much more value are you than the birds, and which of you, by being anxious, can add any single hour to his span of life? If you aren't able to do to, where is it I wanted to see.
Speaker 2:Matthew 6 right here. I reference this a lot.
Speaker 1:This is actually the the luke one. I want to. I wanted to read yeah, look at the birds for the air they nor sooner reap. The Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you more valuable? In which I want to, if he dresses the lilies? Yeah, I just remember the gyrosong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, gyros things about my goodness, I cannot find it.
Speaker 1:If God closes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothed you? Mm-hmm. And so it just goes back to all these times of of God Design the world. Yeah, god designed the small minute details of the world. Then how much more would he do for you and not in through you? Yeah, and so we go into this place where your graphic designs whatever me, the flyers, whatever you make, could be your form of evangelism.
Speaker 1:Because, let's say, I'm scrolling on Instagram, I'm scrolling on a tick tock and I come up to this one video and I'm like, whoa, what this is. This is so cool. I see, or I know, that photographers they try to get as Diverse as they possibly can in one photo so that it could relate to whoever audience may see this. Yeah, and so you may have an elderly person, you may have a young person, you may have different races, whatever the case may be. But if you see somebody and you're just scrolling and you see, hey, that person looks like me, you're in the door and your flyer then caught them, and then you're like, oh, maybe I should check this, this, this church out or this, this event out, and then I go to it and then I'm impacted.
Speaker 1:But it all first started from this, yeah, photo, or this, this graphic, yeah, and so it's really God using you and creatives to To reach out through this realm of social media that's growing so much and that your influence is is beginning to expand through this network of Instagram and in all these other additional social media outlets. So how do you guide your, what you design, or what God uses you to design, in the, the, the social media sphere?
Speaker 2:Well, I think this does go back to the whole who's your target audience kind of thing, and and I like looking at some of like these other content creators that even do it for the big churches, yeah, and and those who are doing it for the little churches, yeah, so what they have built is a community and when you know who your community is, it makes it easier for you to start designing something and and this is also goes back to like the whole Designing, even with a potential failure, like you're still meeting the need of satisfying that communities.
Speaker 2:You know their, their perspectives and then their needs, because you and I like the way that that some of these big churches do it Compared to like a smaller church, is that, like they're kind of they have different audiences. It's all a church community, yeah, but the way that the church is at a mega church and the church as at a smaller church are two different, are two very, very different mindsets, and especially when you start to consider also the races of these, like like the demographic, like a small Hispanic church versus a mega church, white church, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very, very different the way you handle the creative space. So, I guess you just really need to know who you're, who your demographic is. Yeah, sometimes I want to make some really, really outlandish, but they are not gonna work in a Hispanic church.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so you. And it's not that I have to Downgrade, it's just that I have to pivot, yeah, and I have to still give good quality, because they deserve quality. But it also has to appeal to my demographic, yeah. So once you realize who you're, who you're designing for, first of all for God, yeah, but you also want to provide something for the community? That is a churchgoer at your church. Yeah, and, and you have to really strategically Drop photos or drop a flyer you know In the, in the social media world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and, and so there's one more point that I want to hit again wasn't on our notes, because we haven't even looked at our notes for real, but one thing I wanted to say is that church has employed more Videographers, more graphic designers, more. I mean really anything in the creative spectrum. Yeah, church has employed more in in the secular world because of the, the, the training that happens within a church. So what are things that you do to like? Let's say, you know you're making a graphic design and I know you have a website, correct? Yeah, and so you're employed by, by certain people to design websites or whatever? Right?
Speaker 2:More or less. Sometimes I'll get some, but it's not what I specialize in.
Speaker 1:But yeah so. So my point is is that you learned or you got your big break or you started in the church realm, yeah, so how is it beneficial for somebody that may not necessarily have a ministry, but they're super creative and they always have these ideas to start first in your local church?
Speaker 2:Well, believe it or not, just to get into the door. You should be creative, yeah, like, and that can be at whatever level of you know practical experience you have. Yeah, um, for me, I didn't. I I I actually don't even consider myself the most like creative person, but I do have a lot of practical experience. But because I have even just a little creativity, I can already start working on some stuff. And when you are a person even who has high creativity and low experience, there's still a place for you. And actually, whenever I'm trying to because even at our church we're still trying to grow the, the, the creative space, that creative group and as long as you are creative, we can teach you the practical stuff.
Speaker 2:It's hard to teach creativity. It's something that is God given. Honestly, there's no way that you can be creative without having God as an influence, because he is the ultimate creator. Yeah, um, so as long as you have that, that little bit of creativity, you can do a lot with it. Yeah, and that's what we're, that's what any church should be looking for is having someone who is quick on their feet, someone who has ideas left and right, even if they are bad ideas. Yeah, um, I have a lot of those. So I and honestly you can do a lot with that you want someone who is, who is like that, who has that energy, or rather than someone who is just like, always second guessing, and you know, that's what. That's what a church should be looking for is for people that are like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, amen. Well, thank you Jesus. Yeah, that was an amazing conversation. I definitely learned some stuff. I'm going to try to be more creative in my graphics now, but thank you all for joining this week's episode of relentless pursuit. Don't forget to like, follow, share, subscribe to all our social media platforms. And don't forget we have a new episode coming next week. We'll see you guys soon.
Speaker 2:Peace.
